Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to smart sex. Smart love we’re talking about sex goes beyond the taboos and talking about love goes beyond the honeymoon. I’m dr. Joe Kort. Thanks for tuning in.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome to smart sex smart love. I’m dr. Joe court. And today I’m talking about side guys, gay men who enjoy sex without anal penetration. Today, I’ll be talking with you tuber LGBTQ plus activist and writer Bradley Burkles and Latino nurse practitioner. Jason Villereal gay men are constantly referring to and defining themselves as tops bottoms, vers top verse bottom verse, when they consider dating or simply hooking up gay men typically ask the other guy what he is, as it relates to anal sex gay men are rigidly defined by penetrative sex. There’s so much talk and discussion about who gives and who receives. But what if a guy is in the top or bottom or even versatile? What if, what about gay men who never engaged in anal sex and never ever will? What if they tried it and didn’t enjoy it and never do it again?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
I’ve always thought they deserved a name of their own. And I created the term sides. I wrote an article in Huffington post in 2013, called guys on the side, looking beyond gay tops and bottoms sides typically struggle with tremendous feelings of shame. They secretly believe that they should be engaging in and enjoying anal sex and that if something must be wrong with them, if they’re not joining, if they’re not enjoying that it’s high time for sides to come out and feel proud and secure about their sexuality. So that’s our discussion today that it’s okay to be aside and I welcoming both Bradley and Jason. Welcome. Thanks. Thank you. So tell me if either one of you want to go first. Why is this something you wanted to talk about on my podcast and why is being aside passionate? Have something to talk about.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Do you want me to go first?
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Um, sure. Um, so I don’t know. I guess I would just say very briefly in, in my practice, um, I’m privileged to hear a lot of people’s stories, um, as particularly as it relates to healthcare, but life is healthcare, sexist, healthcare, um, relationships, hookups are all healthcare and, um, behind closed doors, I people have told me things that they would never tell other people, which is what should happen when you’re speaking with your medical providers. So we have an accurate sense of what people are doing sexually, what people are doing with their lives in general. And, um, just hearing and seeing that diversity, that true diversity of expression of sexual expression really has helped me myself to also be comfortable in my own self-expression. Um, which is to say that, um, I’ve tried, uh, top and bottom and it just doesn’t appeal to me. Um, and, um, you know, I never just, just as with my patients, I never say never. Um, but it’s things are highly unlikely in certain regards. So I think just, um, just very briefly, I think it’s good to have these conversations, um, to really kind of better understand the diversity of people’s experiences and to affirm those. Thank you, Jason. All right, Bradley.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
Well, firstly, I just want to also clarify that I’m actually bisexual. Um, but I don’t think that really makes anything, anything different in this conversation. Um, I think a lot of men who have intimacy, um, with, with any persons of any gender, um, can relate to the fact that society puts a lot of pressure and obsession over penetration, whether that is with opposite sex or same sex relationships. Um, and that can be a very, very frustrating experience, um, regardless of your sexuality. Um, and it’s definitely something that, like, I know bisexual men who are intimate with women and who are also, you know, not fond of obsession with penetration and this kind of glorification of that very specific form of intimacy. Um, I think for me, a lot of my frustration with the top bottom dichotomy is that, um, it’s built into really intense stereotypes that affect so many aspects of somebody’s life.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
You know, um, there’s this assumption that because, um, I’m a skinny guy with who’s, you know, of average height, um, who paints his nails that I must want to be like kind of used and abused in a very specific receptive form of, of sexual intimacy. Um, and that assumption is so heavily, um, interlaced with my physical characteristics where I’ll go on dates and that’s just the assumption. So I think that, um, the top bottom dichotomy it’s stereotyping it’s harmful, it’s carrying over a lot of heterosexual ideas of sex and intimacy. So a lot of my passion around talking about this subject is, um, about debunking some of those notions and, um, debunking some of those stereotypes, creating a healthier culture around dating and sex and, um, you know, tearing down some of the shame that people have around not enjoying penetration. Um, and also just educating on the wide variety of intimacy that exists amongst men who love men. You know, there’s so many ways that, um, you know, same sex, male intimacy can occur. Um, and it’s just so limiting to say that that can only exist through the lens of penetration. So, um, there’s, there’s a lot of motivations for me to talk about this subject. It is something I’m very passionate about it,
Speaker 2 (05:33):
And I’m so glad you’re both here and you Bradley, I didn’t know about you until, so we started a Facebook private group called side guys for gay men and bisexual men who don’t enjoy anal penetration. And then somebody links to your videos. And I started watching them on this whole, uh, unpacking and challenging this dichotomy of top bottom, the binary, right. And, um, you know, it really, my entire daylights I’ve been
Speaker 4 (05:58):
Gay. My entire I’ve been out, you know, since I’m 14 to my very first therapist, I’ve just been always gay and never enjoyed anal sex and never tried it. I’ve never been the receptor. So people who don’t, who are listening, if you don’t know a top is somebody who gives anal sex. The bottom is the one who receives anal sex. I’m neither. So I would always feel ashamed and guys would talk about and therapists would tell me I hated sex. And there was something wrong with me and gay guys would tell me then what do you do? Like, like this weird like, well then what do you do? Like, there’s nothing else to do other than . Right. And, um, so over time I just, and then people would tell me I’m a Virgin. So over time I just, I don’t know. In my late forties, I started feeling like, why do I have to feel ashamed of this?
Speaker 4 (06:39):
There’s nothing wrong with me. And I was talking with friends and who know I’m not top or bottom. And I said, well, then maybe I’m just aside. You know, I was joking. And then everyone sort of liked that idea. And I really liked the idea. And then I wrote about it. It was very anxiety provoking for me to write that article because I think I come out in it a little bit, but not big. And I was, I was not sure how it would be received. Um, but I also didn’t care because I wanted to feel ashamed and I wanted other guys. And what I really like about what you’re adding Bradley that maybe you could say more of is I don’t think I do a great job and want to do a better job in adding bisexuals to this because somebody is sexual guys. They do have penetrative sex with women, but they don’t have penetrative sex with men. And we had a discussion on the thread inside guys and said, well, then there’s still sides. What do you think?
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Yeah, no, I think they’re definitely still sides. Um, and also the site side is a label. It’s like many labels. We use it, um, to assist in our understanding of our sexuality and our identity. Um, and it can mean different things for different people. Um, some people that use the label side are open to having, um, penetrative sex with partners under certain circumstances, but just maybe don’t prefer it. Um, so, you know, it’s kind of like, um, there’s a label that called gray sexual, which are, you know, asexual people that are still willing to have sex with, with partners under certain circumstances. Um, and, and of course I almost hesitate to even make that label comparison because of course people think that sides are asexual and, you know, have lower sex drives and that super problematic and just completely false. Um, and in fact, I do think it’s interesting.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
You brought up the Virginia things. I’ve gotten that, that you’re a Virgin, I’ve gotten that I’m straight because I don’t like anal sex, you know, and it’s so frustrating. Um, but yeah, I think ultimately like these labels are really helpful to better understand our sexuality and they don’t need to, um, be conclusive to say that, you know, they don’t need to denote anything about our sexuality. Ultimately me saying that I’m aside doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t have penetration with some of the opposite sex. And additionally, it doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t ever have penetration with someone at the same sex. It just means that I absolutely do not identify as a top or bottom. I don’t identify as versatile. I don’t participate in that entire culture of nonsensical sexual stereotyping. And generally speaking, that’s not high on my list of things to do. I think there’s a, of other things that are a lot more enjoyable that I’d much rather do.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
And if I never have anal sex, I’m perfectly content with that. Um, so, you know, I think that label can mean different things for different people. And I think that’s okay and definitely something bisexual people can claim. Um, and heck I’m sure even that we could extend it to other sexualities and identities depending on, you know, it’s a conversation to be had. And, and, you know, we’re really the only ones having this conversation. People are. So within, people’s such rigid ideas around their sexuality, is that the idea, the idea of aside is radical and that’s crazy. It’s crazy that it’s so controversial as a concept.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
Totally. And, and Jason, maybe you could talk to, because Jason’s the reason I want to make sure you get full credit for why I even started the Facebook group. You know, I wrote that article and then I sort of didn’t see it go anywhere, but it was going places. People were doing support groups, I’ve gone across the country and people would come up to me and said, Oh my God, the gay community, LGBT community center, we’re doing this group. We have this support group online. And, um, I should do something with it. I never did. I never did. And then I met Jason online and Jason’s like, if you don’t do it, I’m doing it. So it’s happening. Right. And I’m like, okay, I’ll do it. And he inspired me to do it. So maybe Jason, you could say, why did you think it was important that we have a group like this? Um,
Speaker 5 (10:07):
Well, I, I think I’ve learned, um, in personal experience and with friends and with patients that I always say that particularly with partners in as much as, as possible honesty is helpful best for everybody. So just personally, if I’m on an app or on, or talking with somebody off an app or whatever, um, it’s so much easier for everybody involved with this as kind of out in the front and say, you know, this is what I’m interested in. And many times people want to know, they ask all the time in various ways on apps, what are you into? And I think when people are clear, that makes for first of all, um, there’s no, uh, unreasonable expectations, but second of all, I’ve been pleasantly surprised to sometimes get the answer me too. Um, and I think the more visibility there is for this to say that, Hey, this is, this is an option of so many options.
Speaker 5 (10:56):
Um, you, you know, people may say I could be a partner with somebody cause I’m not into it. Either myself or somebody could say, I really liked you, that I’m going, we can make this work. We, you know, we, maybe we don’t have penetrative sex. Maybe, you know, that’s, that’s the beauty I think of being in the LGBTQ spectrum and continuum, and many people have many different points in their life. We’re in different spots is that we get to make our own rules and that’s not easy. The negotiation is very difficult, but once the negotiation is there and um, all parties are, have, have consented. It just makes things so much better. And I think that, um, you know, I think having that visibility is so important so that other people can, can feel comfortable in saying, Oh, me too. And then you find out there’s actually more people than you thought, or there’s more people who would be willing to, you know, go, you know, make it work. And instead of having a facade and find to make it work for a year or two, three, four years, if it’s out in the open, then it’s great. You move on and then you don’t have to deal with all that drama anymore.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
Yeah. So what I love about the group is it’s shame reduction, right? That’s my whole job. As a therapist, get rid of the shame. There’s nothing wrong with you. You’re not a Virgin, you know, and we don’t even use Virgin anymore in sex therapy. We say, when was your sexual debut? Right. And that’s up to you, each person has their own decision. And, uh, you know, the other thing I like that I hate actually is that these apps don’t allow you to identify as anything, but top or bottom or versatile. And I know there’s been a petition to Grindr. It has not been signed very much by people, but one guy in our group. And I really liked this. He in his pictures puts this and I like this. And a lot of people are going to start to do this. And it’s my, it’s how I define a side in the Huffington post article, aside as someone who prefers to kiss, hug and engage in oral sex mutual masturbation and rubbing up and down on each other, to just name a few of the sexual activities, they enjoy. These men enjoy practically every sexual practice, aside from anal penetration of any kind. They may have tried it and even performed it for some time before they became aware that for them, it was simply not erotic and wasn’t getting any more. So I love that. You know, I just think that that’s, that’s what should be the definition on the apps? What do you guys think?
Speaker 5 (13:17):
Well, I think that there’s an honesty there. I mean, that’s, that’s, that’s the accuracy and, um, you know, once somebody is able to be honest about kind of what they’re into or not into, then it just everybody’s happier. Um, and, uh, you know, you say, you talk about, um, maybe they’ve tried, they’re not just, just it just not into it. That’s I think that’s so much better to just really be able to say that and then say, this is what I am interested in. So instead of just focusing on not into this or that, um, say I really into this and this and this, and again, sometimes you’ll find someone to say, well, actually that sounds really appealing. Also let’s do that. Um, and I think that that visibility is the more visible it is. We all have to come out and we all know generationally that the more people come out, the more kind of normalized it is to not to be on a strictly heterosexual end of a spectrum. So I think this is another part of that process.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Yeah. I love what you say about honesty. Um, cause that is so much to do with it. I definitely spend so much of my time. Um, um, after I had come out, you know, trying to conform it to a system that just made me very unhappy and it was always this idea that I had to be one or the other, I had to fill this expectation to obtain sex love and relationships. And this is something people are always commenting on my videos about, um, being aside, people are always like, but will I be able to find a partner? Will I be able to find love? And they already kind of know for themselves that they belong to this community, but their fear is that because they belong to this community that will isolate them and they need to jump through all these hoops to fit into, you know, the gay or the wider LGBT community expectation of their sexuality.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
And it’s always, it always makes me really sad and I, you know, always do my best to take the time to respond and say, no, you can absolutely meet other people. Like you would be surprised how many people are out there. Um, and the thing is like sometimes people just do not know enough about their own sexuality. We get all of our ideas around sexuality, mostly through pornography. And so you’ll find so many, you know, gay and bisexual men wouldn’t even know that there’s another option. And so they might ask the question, are you a top or bottom? And you might respond and say, actually I’m neither. And they might go, Oh, I didn’t realize that was an option. And then you can have that conversation. Um, and, and it’s, as you say, then you’re just more people are coming out, you’re expanding and, and educating.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
And sometimes when I get that question, what are you into? I’m like, Oh man, like you have no idea what you just ask. We’re going to, we’re going to talk about that. And I have this opportunity to explain forms of sexuality that people have never heard of like frosting and, um, you know, other intercrural and other forms of non penetrative intimacy. And people just don’t know these exists because their, their viewpoints are so penetrative from, you know, watching pornography and that kind of thing. Um, so yeah, I think going back to the original question is an amazing definition. I think it’s great. Um, yeah,
Speaker 4 (16:08):
People don’t realize there’s a difference between sexual orientation and erotic orientation. So my sexual orientation is to men, but my erotic orientation includes lots of things. It does not include when, when porn goes to penetration on turned off. Um, and actually I’m mostly turned on by straight porn. I’m not necessarily, uh, uh, turned down by a gay porn. Um, it’s like watching lesbian porn for me, it’s it doesn’t do much for me. Um, and people, you know, they look at you like, well, how could that be? And like you said, Jason, like, maybe you’re really straight. Or if, if you don’t like all this, um, but you said something that you, that I want to make sure we talk about that with dating dating is hard enough. And then here you are not engaging in penetration. And I’ll tell you what I did in my twenties when I was dating. I never did a penetration, but I, I waited until I found the right guy and lots of good guys passed me by, but 28 years ago, my husband Mike was willing to stay with me, was willing to say, I can forego that. Um, and we talked about that maybe throughout our relationship, we may have experimented a little bit, but it really just never turned either of us on and it worked. So it is possible, but it’s just means you have to wait longer.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
Well, and not even always that I, you know, sometimes yes, you do kind of put yourself into a smaller dating pool. That can be true, but likewise, it’s more common than I think a lot of people would realize. And it also depends on kind of where you’re looking for intimacy. Like, you know, we’ve, I’ve spent plenty of time on Grindr, you know, I’m definitely not judging the use of Grindr, but obviously we talked about earlier, grinder has a top or bottom option, like Grindr literally creates a system and a community that is based around penetrative sex. So you’re already by using that app more likely to find people that are in that dichotomy because that’s what the whole app creates. That whole structure, where he is. If you meet somebody on a dating app that isn’t based around that your conversation around sexual preferences might happen on the second date and it might be more of a conversation.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
And, you know, I mean, I’ve been asked like top or bottom question, you know, it, man, if I had a dollar for every time, I’d asked that I would be very wealthy, man. So obviously it’s, it’s a big part of, you know, male on male intimacy and dating. Um, but the idea that like you have to wait longer to find someone who’s also aside or who’s happy to not have penetration to be part of their orientation. Um, it’s not always true. Um, you know, I’m, I’m often pleasantly surprised. I’ll find even sometimes on dates these days, I find that I’m really apprehensive to have that conversation. And I often do assume that people that I’m on dates with want penetration. In fact, I’ll admit that I often assume that if it’s kind of is an assumption that I have, I assume that people I’m on date penetration.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
And so I feel awkward and stressed and apprehensive bringing that up. And I think, okay, sure. Maybe we’ve had a couple of good sexual encounters, but eventually they’re going to want penetration. And then the reality is when I have that conversation, a lot of times it’s actually, no, that was never, you know, and I could have had that conversation from day one alleviated all the fear and anxiety. And so it’s like, Jason says, it’s just all about honesty. I think we, you know, we also have our own assumptions. We assume that everyone else is not, you know, like us or whatever that’s harmful to, you know? And so, so yeah. Um,
Speaker 5 (19:27):
Well I think I’m, I’m wondering if at this point, as people are listening, particularly people who identify as gay men, if they’ve made it this far, some of them are rolling their eyes and saying, Oh, well this is just crazy. And I, and I, the way I kind of described it to some people is, you know, I think personally I know medically where the prostate is and people of all genders who have prostates like that being stimulated, many people do. Um, so, okay. So, but that doesn’t mean that everybody does now for a, someone who identifies as male to have oral sex on someone else who identifies as male that’s, if you want to use the strip dichotomy, that’s, that’s something that’s rather homosexual, that’s rather gay. Um, and so I’ve talked about that with people and then also, um, you know, they, many people will say, I just can’t understand how you just don’t like top romantic.
Speaker 5 (20:17):
How is like the, I, I, I love that so much. And like, how could you, and I say to somebody, well, do you w when you do oral sex, as many people do do swallow and they’re like, Oh, no, I don’t like, I’m disgusting, whatever. I’m like, how, like, that’s, to me, that just sounds weird because I’m like, that’s the best part. And I, so I have to explain that to people so that you see your reaction to that. That’s how I feel about this. And sometimes they’re like, the light bulb will go off like, Oh, okay. And like, to me, like, I, you know, after someone has, has had an orgasm, like some people are like, Oh, just it’s disgusting. Let’s clean it up. I know people like that. I’m like, you’re, you’re still a hundred percent gay. That’s fine. My, when it comes to sex, I say this to friends and patients, um, I really only have two criteria.
Speaker 5 (21:02):
The first is that everybody involved, including partners not present consent to what’s happening or about to happen, um, and to, and that assumes that they’re, that they are able to consent. And two, no one is being harmed to the point of needing medical attention. And if those two are satisfied, have added, and I think these, the labels that we seem to want to put on ourselves are really ultimately not helpful. Um, particularly when they set into stone at the very beginning of an, of a relationship or, or connection between two people, things that don’t need to be there. Um, and so I think the labels, you know, especially someone, um, you know, maybe who identifies as bisexual or not, you know, pansexual or all sorts of things. I always just say, we’re all human. And you, you know, I have patients that I will ask them, um, someone who is a cisgender woman, it’s hard for me to ask her about receiving anal sex, but it’s part of health.
Speaker 5 (21:58):
And I, so I’ve, I’ve started being better at asking. I find so many more women that I didn’t even know that I should’ve been asking. So the point is that the sexuality and the sexual expression has such diversity. And I think that we all, as, as people, we like to talk about, Oh, we like diversity. That’s important, but let’s, let’s meet it and, and say, Hey, this works for you. Can I get involved in that? Do I want to give all of that? If yes. Great. If not you do you, I do meet. We’re all happy. And I think we can, should all just respect each other for that.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
You know, based on all the devices, we are very diverse as gay and bisexual men, but then we’re not tolerant of each other. There’s sole differentiation. What makes you different, makes you wrong? Makes you bad? And I’m going to be honest. I spent years wondering, do I not like anal sex because I was an animal baby. You guys are too young to maybe know what an intimate baby was. But in the sixties, every time that I went to the doctor, the doctor would say, give him an enema, give him an enema. So my mother gave me too many animals, or because the AIDS, the AIDS crisis, I’m older than both of you. So I went through all that. I came out negative, but it didn’t matter. I was, it still traumatized me to watch all these people die. And most of it was anal sex. And I often think that maybe that was why I didn’t get HIV because I don’t do anal sex. Or, and I thought, well, is those reasons why, or, or am I had, or a normative I’ve, I’ve checked myself and I’ve realized it doesn’t matter. I don’t like it. I don’t hate it. I don’t love it. I just don’t, it’s neutral. And I, it could be okay for whatever reasons that they are.
Speaker 5 (23:27):
And those there’s, I’ve seen it as, like, it looks like a fringe far, right. Group of people who identify as gay men who, and I’m like, well, that’s, that’s not the same thing. That’s not even remotely close. And I think that thinking, assuming that someone who’s not into anal has misogyny or internalized homophobia, that’s playing into those same dichotomies and heteronormative ism that you are, people are purporting to work again. So again, I go back to everybody’s old enough to consent. No one’s being harmed. That’s all that matters. That is literally all that matters. And that’s it. And all the rest is just nonsense.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
Yeah. I did an article about being aside and they put, um, the publication, which I won’t mention, um, put, see similar or similar ideologies. And it’s basically pinned in my article with what you’re talking about, which are the goalies, um, G zero Y uh, which is this horrible group of, of quiet, like, um, yeah, just, just a very problematic group that has nothing to do with, you know, not liking penetrative sex. And I’ve, I’ve gotten the internalized homophobia thing over and over and over again. And my videos on this subject, it’s a regular comment and it’s so frustrating because, um, at the end of the day, it just has nothing to do with, with anything, you know, um, me not enjoying being penetrated as nothing to do with, you know, internalized homophobia and it’s, um, yeah, it, it is really frustrating. And it also sets the idea that that is, um, what it is to be, that you have to enjoy it to be, you know, LGBT plus, um, that that’s like the ultimate form of, of self-acceptance.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Um, and there are people that will never be able to engage in anal sex for various, um, you know, medical reasons that tells them that they are wrong or that their bodies are wrong. And this is also something I wanted to kind of bounce off with what you’re saying, Jason, is that not only are, you know, and you, as well as you’re, like not only are there they’re RONIC differences, but, um, there’s also very physical differences in the way that our bodies process around a system as low. Like, for example, um, like I very much see my nipples as an abortionist zone. That’s such an overshare, but, you know, um, it’s, it’s a Rajan it’s, it’s enjoyable. It’s something that gives me physical pleasure in can be extremely stimulating. Whereas I know men that do not get any erotic pleasure derived from their nipples whatsoever.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
And one of those, and this is so confusing to me because I’m like, no, like it’s a physical response. Like, of course it’s erratic, but the reality is our bodies are just different. And we quite literally probably have different, you know, um, physical makeup of that area of our body that sends different signals and has different, you know, so this idea that, you know, people are like, Oh, but this is so enjoyable for you. Yes. And they’re like, well, no, for all men, not necessarily, we have different bodies, we have different, there’s so many different aspects of our human experience. Um, and that’s a beautiful, that’s a beautiful, wonderful aspect of sexuality. Um, you know,
Speaker 4 (26:20):
So we have to come to an end. Um, I want to just first, um, uh, say more about you before we do, and then where people can find you I’ll start with you Bradley, you know, you’re a modern LGBTQ plus pioneer YouTuber, activist and writer, and you explore issues around sexuality and identity in your weekly YouTube videos and articles. Where can people find you?
Speaker 3 (26:40):
So, um, I’m on all social media at Birkholz that’s B R a D L E Y B I R K H O L Zed. Um, racial LZ, that’s me on all social media and YouTube. So yeah. Feel free to connect.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Thank you so much. And then we had today, Jason Villarreal, he’s a Latino nurse practitioner focusing on HIV treatment prevention and primary care serving mostly Spanish speakers in New York city with interest in GLBTQ health and identifying and dismantling inequality and building more just systems. Where can they find you, Jason? Um, I’m not as much of a social media person. I don’t have YouTube or Twitter or any of that stuff. Um, I mean, I guess I have an Instagram, what’s your Instagram? Uh, it’s uh, NYC, N P a M D G. It’s all, all those letters, right? Um, yeah, I don’t, I I’ve never gotten much into YouTube or Twitter or stuff like that. I guess I’m old. You’re not, but nothing wrong with that at all. We all have our own styles, right? No judgment here. We’re all side. We’re here not to listen. Both of you. Thank you so much for doing this, taking your time out. And, um, for those of you that are listening, I hope you enjoy today’s show. If you’re looking for me online, you can go to dr. Joe court on Twitter, and you can find me on Instagram as well with dr. Joe court as well. Please stay safe and healthy, and I’ll see you next time.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Thanks for listening to this episode of smart sex, smart love. I’m dr. Joe court, and you can find me on Joe kort.com. That’s J O E K O R t.com. See you next time.