Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to smart sex. Smart love we’re talking about sex goes beyond the taboos and talking about love goes beyond the honeymoon. I’m dr. Joe Kort. Thanks for tuning in.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hello and welcome back to smart sex. Smart love with me, dr. Joe Kort today’s episode is a topic very personal to me and close to my heart. Online romance scamming millions of people turn to online dating apps or social networking sites to meet someone, but instead of finding romance many, find a scammer, trying to trick them into sending money. And I know exactly how this feels because I too am a victim of romance fraud. Hell and it’s not what you might think about 10 years ago, my husband of 27 years, and I were just settling into the couch. When I checked my social media on my phone, one message struck me as curious. So I opened it much to my surprise. It was from a woman who said she was in love with me, or rather in love with the person who had been claiming to be me sending her photographs.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I had posted over the years, including those with my niece and nephews who were minors at the time, would you be willing to talk to me? She asked, she wanted to process what had happened to her and felt a connection to me since all the pictures of me were stolen from my social media accounts. I explained that I was a therapist, a happily married gay man, and would be willing to speak with her in the context of a professional consultation. But beyond that, I told her she should report this scam to Facebook. And I would like to do that as well. I was flabbergasted and furious that this had happened to her, to me and to my niece and nephews who were minors, all of whom are innocent parties to these perpetrators. And unfortunately it wasn’t the only time this happened since then, I have been the unwitting victim of more than 100 of these cons and have diligently reported them to Facebook and Instagram only to be told on many that such activity did not violate their guidelines.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
My response has been and remains. What possible company guidelines would allow someone to exploit a person’s identity, even use photos of someone’s minor relatives in order to con someone out of their money, because I received no real help from either Facebook or Instagram. I finally looked into federal laws and eventually was able to force the platforms to take the fake profiles down, but it didn’t end the problem. Year after year, I learned that someone has used my images as well as my niece and nephews and fake profiles to lure someone into a romance scam. So I turned to scam haters United for help. And my guest today is Ruth Grover. Founder of scam haters. Ruth is a widow from the UK who was a victim of online romance fraud, herself, which led her to set up scam haters and expose these vile fraudsters. She has supported thousands of scam victims over the past eight years. Last year, people reported losing $201 million to romance scams. People reported losing more money to romance scams in the past two years than to any other fraud reporter to the FTC and reported money losses from online romance scams has increased by six times in the last five years, romance scammers are like, mine are cruel for the women, the victims and the menus like me cruel, especially because victims like me have no choice in being used. And we could do little about welcome Ruth.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Hello. Nice to meet you.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Me too. So nice to meet you in person, right? Because we’ve just been online and yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
It’s like, you know, it’s funny because when you see somebody and you see the pictures, you really feel as if you know them and we’ve never met, we’ve never spoken.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
I feel the same way about you. And then I get this fake profile and I’m like, it’s happening again? And you’re like, all good. And I feel great that you do that. Thank you.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
That’s fine. We’re just lucky. We’re in a position where we, where we actually can do it. Um, and we’ve helped a lot of people. And it’s one of the things that really, really next meet hate scam so much. It’s because people like yourself. I mean, we’ll go into the, to the actual women victims and men victims as well. Um, but it’s people like yourself who actually can’t do anything about it.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
It’s crazy that, so what happens is I’ll report it and Facebook or Instagram will say that doesn’t meet the guidelines.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Do you have to keep reporting it? But they don’t seem to have any guidelines because they, they, they, I mean, what is a guideline when you object to your picture’s being used? And they said, no, it’s okay. You know it, isn’t right. They’re going to have to change that.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Well, can you tell us, like, what are some signs up for people that they’re being scammed? Do you have like a profile?
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Well, it’s very difficult because as you yourself know, when we’ll, we’ll, we’ll take scams involving yourself, you are portrayed as a doctor, but not doing what you’re doing. You don’t portray it as a doctor who is usually a military doctor or United nations and during a war zone, um, there isn’t any doctor in any way, for one thing, United nations do not have American doctors in war zones. There is not anybody that’s going to contact somebody and say, you know, I’m an orthopedic surgeon in Syria. It’s never going to happen. You know, it isn’t too. It isn’t going too far to say that any stranger that contacts you don’t throw yourself into it because you’ve got to check because I think in your life and a lot of the lives of the people that’s listening to this, you don’t know anybody who randomly goes through social media and contact somebody and said, I was really taken by your profile.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
I’d like to get to know you better. It’s that’s got to be your first red flag because normal people don’t do it. They get very, very friendly, very, very quickly, and they want to get you off. So, so say somebody is using yourself and it’s on Instagram. They know now that Instagram accounts will go on Facebook accounts. So then once you get you onto a chat app, like Hangouts, WhatsApp, telegram, so that they’re not disturbed because you know, the account goes, will, it doesn’t matter. They’ve got the victim already. Oh, wow. So they’ve got them on Hangouts. Now you can get their work as a team. So you imagine the team in a room. So those coming all across the world, now they’re such in Nigeria, or go on it somewhere in West Africa. And there’s coming everywhere from the entire United States to Europe, to, um, Philippines, to Thailand, to South Africa, to Australia. So they’re working in shifts around the clock. Very, very organized, very organized. Yes, yes. And so they have what is called a format and that’s a script.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
Speaker 3 (07:35):
So when you start to talk to a woman, they are very, very friendly. And also they invent a very sad past. So they might be an orthopedic surgeon in Syria, Yemen, you know, whatever, if you do your research and look in Yemen, there isn’t anybody that is going to be on. Instagram comes up, but you know, they’re an orthopedic surgeon. Their wife died in a car accident and they have the mother’s child. It’s being looked after by a nanny. Um, the stories don’t change a lot. The, the, the wife has died of car crash cancer or, or childbirth. Um, and so that between them and the person that they are scamming, there’s a bond because you’re the only person in the world that have got. And so that you get the very, very, um, grooming stage where they are very interested in your life, in your, um, well-being really, and it’s every night you will get a good night before you go to bed.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Every morning, you will get a good morning, have a good day, honey. Now you got to think that these think of yourself in the way you talk. How many people do you actually call honey? Oh, baby. No, they will. They’ll call them honey, baby, my day and my queen. Anything. Now, when you think you’ve got these scammers sat in a room, screaming across the world with all these women with different names, call them honey and Berbee and you don’t have to remember the names. So you’re not going to get that confused. So you’re not going to be scamming Barbara and call her Patricia because you’re calling a dare and honey. Oh wow. The women went, it’s funny. When you see the conversation back with, with women, because they will adopt that same terminology. So they’ll say, Oh, good morning, Beth, how are you? You’re not thinking, never say that in a million years normally, but they’re adopting what is coming to them. The scammer likes that because then they, you know, they they’ve got the, the connection that, and they know there’s a bit of affection building up. So then you’ve got a stage where within a very short length of time, they’re very affectionate and they’re very loving and they love you. They want to be with you. They want to come and see you. And again, think about it. I know it’s very easy to get completely wrapped up in it. It isn’t real. And also think about real life. This would not happen in real life. So it’s the fact that it’s online doesn’t mean that you certainly in a Hollywood movie,
Speaker 2 (10:34):
I have to tell you, as you’re talking, it feels so validating because you know, I didn’t tell people about this forever, other than my husband, because I didn’t really know what to feel. I felt humiliated and violated. But so when I finally started telling my friends, because, um, as I started talking about it, they were like, why you, you know, I mean, I have other friends and they’re more attractive than me and I, when my friends said, Oh, maybe it’s because they work in groups. And they’re, they’re saying this guy’s picture works. So they do work in groups and that’s probably what’s.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
Yes. And also you have, um, you have a presence, you’re a professional person. Now, there is a bit of a difference between a professional person. And let’s say a random person, and I’m not running down any random people, but you know how you’ve had professional photographs taken. So you know how to present yourself in front of the camera, you know how to look at the camera. Now you think that once you’ve been sent out to a woman, you’re not looking at the camera, she thinks you’re looking at earth. Yes.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Right, right. And it’s so sad. And you know, I’ve had people say, well, why do people fall for this? And as a therapist from all the clients I’ve had, I understand you’re lonely. You’ve just lost your husband. Maybe have a bad relationship with your husband. Maybe there’s been infidelity, whatever it is. And now there’s some man, your age attractive enough to take interest in you desire him. You, it has to
Speaker 3 (12:03):
Be go to her. And some days, I mean, some days they might get the wrong day to contact the woman and she doesn’t call for it. You know, it might go. So they might contact a hundred women. They’ll get 30 out to those women that will, that will respond. But it’s just, you can get any type of person that can be from any walk of life. They can be not very well educated. They can be professional. It can be doctors. That can be anything. If that scammer has caught them just at the right time, when they are a bit lonely, when they are a bit just feeling a bit that they need a bit of attention. And then somebody comes into their lives and they’re getting that attention. And it makes the difference. And what’s the what’s the scammer can get his nails into them once he can contact them and get an immediate response.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
Um, and once he can sort of just get their attention so that he knows that the, the lady is waiting for him and he’s then very, you know, have you eaten, um, are you taking care of yourself? Um, did you sleep well? Well, nobody’s asked them not for a very long time and that’s what they miss. And suddenly here’s somebody that’s really interested in them when it happened to me. I’m the world’s worst Sinek. I actually thought, why is this us general actually wanting to marry me? And I researched romance scams. And I found it. I didn’t, I was lucky I didn’t lose any money, but I was angry. That’s my, I started to do something about it. I was angry that I was a widow and I was a target because nobody had the right to do that to me. Um, but let’s go back to our victim. So did very nicely build up a story. And of course your niece and nephews become your poor children. Who’s just lost their mother.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Think we made my sister and they say, this is my wife. She dies. It’s so exploited. That’s the word you were floated. We’re all exploited by this.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
And they don’t see anybody in this as human beings. It is simply cash. That is all because the woman, they call clients because they don’t like the word victims. So they call them clients. You actually don’t even get that much consideration. All you are is a set of pictures. You you’re, you’re literally bait on the end of the fishing hook because they’re going to send out your pictures all the time, bang, bang, bang, to get her interested and are not bothered who you are, what you are, feels down my spine. Yeah. You are just that to keep the attraction going. So they building up with the victim, they building up, um, you know, what do you want, dear? You know, um, when I get home to you, we’ll buy a house together and we’ll be, I always look up to you and I will be really good to your children.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Your children can meet my children. And so they building up a dream. You as the person in the pictures, not just the Nigerian in the room, you as the person in the pictures are building up, um, a picture with the person, with the victim. Now, when she’s not on with the scanner, she’s thinking, Oh, now when he gets here, we’ll have to do this. And I want him to meet so-and-so. And I bet it, if we’re going to sell them a house, because this is what we do. I sell my house owner. You sell your house, we’ll put the money together and we’ll buy a house somewhere together.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
And they’re selling them a dream because obviously the money use is a wealthy man, because he’s got to be because he’s going to look after them forever and is wealthy, man. He’s good looking. He’s attentive. He’s romantic. They send out long pieces of rural much copy and paste from Google, which would never work with me, but works with an awful lot of women because you’ve got to think as well. They go for married women because if it’s a married woman and she’s had, um, a very long marriage and it doesn’t really pay attention to her anymore, right? Oh, he hasn’t been very nice or he’s being selfish in her, in her mind. Then the scholar becomes her best friend. I’m going to be better to you than he is.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
I said, I say to these women, this is what I don’t understand. It’s probably my biggest question. We are in 2020, there is video on everything. Why would you continue talking to anybody more than a month without getting on video call and looking at each other
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Women? Not to do that again. I think it’s because the trust has been built up with the words. Now, if you have someone where they say you sell they yourself, the military, they’re a doctor. They will say we can’t do that because of security. And a woman will accept that because her mom has told her that now it’s 2020 and people Google a sneeze. And yet they won’t Google a stranger.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Right. Right. Because as soon as I put like picture in Google image, they find out who I am in there. It’s over. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Right. Um, so, you know, it’s, it’s, this guy has got to move quite fast at first because he’s got to build up this trust to put her off, wanting to mistrust and search.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
So let me ask you another question. So I’ve also had this happen where they sometimes will, oftentimes they use my picture and they friend me, why do they do? I’m looking at myself, trying to be friends with myself, but it’s a different name. Why did they do that?
Speaker 3 (18:22):
I know they also send to you, it was themselves.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Now that just happened. And I decided this time I decided, and you probably remember, I told you what happened. I said to the guy, how you know me, because I do that. Cause I do get spam. I mean, I mean, I’m public figures are good spam. And so people say, I read your books. I, you know, this guy is like, I’m a fan of you. And he didn’t spell my name. Right. And I’m like, well, what kind of fan? How do you know me? And then he started to say, I have a business opportunity for you. I’d like you to come into business with me to scam these. But I was shocked that he was like that bold
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Because they’ve got nothing to lose. If you think that anyone will tell you, if anyone tells you, there is no such thing as the perfect crime, they’ve never come across romance. Scams romance scam is the perfect crime. It is open. It is everywhere where they are Nigeria. I’m sorry. And I I’m perfectly sure there are thousands of perfectly nice people in Nigeria. Nigeria is the home of fraud and they don’t do anything about it. I have a theory about this. And in as much as if you think of the millions upon millions, that scamming brings into these countries and scammers spend it, you know, they’re not putting it away for a rainy day. They spend, it must really, really must help their economy a great deal. It’s really sour. So they don’t do anything about it. They’re in massive amounts of corruption. So you can give the police about, you know, uh, a few could you can, you can, you know, bone any, anything to anybody and they will turn a blind eye. They can go to a bank. They’ve got somebody in the know in the bank or in Western union. So it’s very easy to pay somebody to not pay any attention to them, getting all this money.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Some of the women that I’ve talked to said that they’ve lost their homes. They’d give given them copies of credit cards and we huge money.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Well, we have, we take a sort of little straw poll and, and sort of if, if a woman comes to us, a man comes to us and they want to tell us how much they’ve lost. We do. We don’t ask. It’s got nothing to do with me, but if they want to tell us how much they’ve lost, we keep a little, um, a little list that just comes through us. And at the moment up til the 1st of September, we got to 20 million. Now it was just amounts that people have told us. We’ve got everything from a hundred dollars iTunes card to one woman lost $2.5 million. Oh my God. Now I come back to what I said about you. Sell your house, honey. I’ll send my, sell my house and we’ll, we’ll buy one. So scalably goes online and he finds a nice house on a real estate site.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
And he says to her, we’re going to have this million dollar house. Um, I put a deposit down. My house is going through. So it’s, once I get the money from the sale of my house, you sell your house and the money that you get from the sale of your house, you send to me, I’ll send you the real estate people. And that will be our home. So the women go sell the house and they’ll sell the proceeds. They’ll send that money on to her lover so that he can pay. So they literally, Dan has sent all the money from the proceeds of the house. She sold the house. It’s not hers anymore. She’s got to move out. And the money is lost because it’s gone to the scammer and money to a scammer does not come back.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
You help. This is . I mean, I’m telling you have chills this whole time. We’re talking. It’s really, it just makes me, and it makes me so incredibly sad. I feel so bad. Um, how do you help them heaters?
Speaker 3 (22:21):
It is so difficult. It really is so difficult to help because I can’t get the memory back right. Once they know the first thing, 100% of every victim that’s ever come through us one long point quite quickly, she’ll say I’m so stupid. Now that destroys everything that now they know about themselves. You know that the image of themselves, they, the whole wellbeing goals, because then they think they’re stupid. So we’ve got to say, well, no, because all you did was trust. Now trust is lovely. You know, trust is absolutely lovely. When you can sit and look in the person’s eyes when it’s online and you haven’t had a video call and you haven’t really had much of a voice call, um, you can’t trust, you simply cannot put 100% of your trust into somebody that you’ve never met. You. You’ve got to keep something back and to check up on, on something before you do this, but they haven’t shown, you know, by the time we’ve got to that stage, there’s nobody telling them they should have done.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
Um, and only you can do is try and bolster. I mean, we do things like practical things, damage limitation, because as you said about showing someone your credit card, now they will use this ledger. And if they’ve got something like, you know, when’s your birthday, honey? How old are you bet? Um, so then they’re probably have got her age, her date of birth, uh, her address, um, as it gets on, they’ll get things like social security numbers, credit cards, everything, the woman just trusts and they give him absolutely everything. When the scams finished, it can either go one of three ways. I think if they can just drop out of this guy, they can just leave. It’s not very common that that happens, but they can, the woman can block. She can come right away from them. Get out of it, sit at home and cry. That’s fine, Tom and cry do not talk to them and say why you’ve done this cause that doesn’t help. She, then who’s got to color her back. She’s then got to get in touch with somebody like Experian, put a fraud alert
Speaker 3 (25:01):
On here. She’s got to put a fraud alert on something like a credit reference agency, because then what would happen is, um, you know, the scholars will leave it for a little while and then they’ll go and open accounts or credit cards or something like that in her name. So we’ve got a bit of damage limitation, which I actually quite like. Cause it brings them down to earth and gives them something practical to, to deal with. I quite like the word victim and victim means somebody has done something bad to you. And that means you haven’t done it to yourself. And you know, somebody’s somebody come and, and they donate to you.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
It’s sociopathic is what you’ve described. I mean, I’ve had clients, who’ve been victims of sociopaths and you know, you would think you would see it coming, but you don’t.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
No. And they’ve, they’ve got them literally pulling somebody into a false sense of security. This is the ultimate false sense of security. And you talk to women in it’s like they’re coming out of, you know, you can see little things you can see in their minds. Little things are falling into place. We’ve got another situation where women of all ages may send compromising pictures to the scammer of themselves,
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Speaker 3 (26:26):
So the scam finishes. They know it’s all finished giving a week. He comes back to her and says, send me $5,000 or say, I’m going to send your picture out to everybody. And it’s mass because she’s trusted this month. And they’ve had a few little sort of [inaudible] date nights, sexy nights. She said things because she trusted him so much. And that, I mean, we we’ve had we’ve. We’ve had one, um, recently where this gum was sent 17 year old woman, sixties, seventies rolled woman, um, compromising pictures to the pastor of the church. Oh, they actually do it. Oh, they do it. Or they do it. Oh my gosh. And of course, so then you’ve got compound on compound. You know, you’ve got, you’ve had the scam, you’ve lost the money you’ve lost. You’ve lost your mind. Um, you, you know, hate yourself because you’re being scanned. You everything’s come crashing down and then they start to blackmail. Um, so the thing is Joe with that as well. It is often very difficult to get the picture of the man that’s been used out of that. Person’s head. I know that is Nigerian.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
I know. And that’s what I feel so bad about. I mean, I’m such a busy, I have a busy life. My, my husband, my sister’s kids, my social, my professional. So they want to talk that out with me. I don’t have time to do that. You know? And they don’t, they don’t end up contacting me for professional consultation. It would be weird anyways, because they have all this, you know, rejection of
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Yeah. I, I actually really strongly and we say this all the time on the page, I strongly don’t think that the menus should be contacted because you had nothing to do with it. No. The fact that you were used is coincidentally to the whole thing so that it’s no good talking to you about it because you can’t tell them anything. They’ll say to us, look, put the scamming you everything about him. No, this made up a story about it.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
Not that any of this is funny, but I did. When COVID started, I, as a therapist, I thought I’m going to do Joe court after dark. And I’m going to, you know, it’s going to be after nine o’clock, we’re going to talk adult. And so I got these like really big lighting and I got soaked pajamas. I’d never wear. And I got that all set up and everything and I’ve put on some extra makeup. I look really good. I did. And then I took pictures and I put it online. If that was funny. And you know, and so he, these guys send that picture to the women, say, honey, I’m going to bed going to bed. Then you would make up and you’ve been slower, but it’s like, I see what you mean though. Like, cause when I’m looking in the camera, the woman would think I’m looking at her.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
Yes, yes. And so it’s very difficult. So even when we get to the stage of the blackmail, she still has your picture in her mind. And that’s very difficult because then we’re fighting for both sides desperately. Because whether it’s yourself, whether it’s a young soldier, whether it’s an older soldier, whether it’s general, whether it’s a mother and an artery, um, she still has that picture in her mind and that’s the person that’s blackmailing her. That’s scamming her. And I think that’s the most unfair thing. You know, Dave, if I could say to somebody, it isn’t him. You’ve been scammed by a room of Nigerians, you a reel of African people and they could get that picture in their head immediately tell it will be absolutely great because it’s the ultimate unfair that in the end you also get the blame for the blackmail, right? Because the image of you, because she’s falling in love with you.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Right. And I think what’s so important and you kind of said it earlier, but I think we need to say it while this is come most commonly coming from Nigeria and maybe African men, it is not only them. There are all races, all colors, all everywhere across the world, right?
Speaker 3 (30:40):
It is. I mean, I will say 95% comes from West Africa. Um, and they, they have people in other countries that help them because obviously you got massive amounts of organized crime here. So you’ve got, um, you need money, laundry, you need lots and lots of support in this. So, you know, they’ve got people, they’ve got money meals in, in the U S they’ve got people who will accept money, who will send it off. There might be another victim who thinks she’s doing her lover a forever. Um, and, and she’s, she’s being scammed herself. It might be somebody that’s doing it for 10%.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
I’m going to tell you Ruth, we have to wrap up. But I want to say, I think you’re an angel. I really do think you’re an angel. You’re doing like warrior work for this whole thing. What did we get to that you would like to leave with that you want everyone to know?
Speaker 3 (31:37):
I just want everybody to stop and think. And, and I know everybody wants to be loved. I know nobody wants to be lonely. I know everybody wants attention, but just stop and think of real life. If a man came to your door and you went to the door and the monster then said, hello, pretty, I was just passing. And I thought, I’d say hello and started to get really familiar. You wouldn’t like it in real life. Don’t accept it online. Have a half of you that thinks it’s very nice. The older half.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
I love it. I just want to repeat it because that was so good. If a man walks by you and says that to you, you wouldn’t accept that. Don’t stop it online. Yes.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
And anybody can come to us. We’re on Facebook. We’re on Instagram. We’re on YouTube. We’re on Google. We’re on everywhere. Anybody can come to us and talk over who they are talking to. And we will help them work out if he’s real. If he’s not most of the time he isn’t, but we will help them work out through how can they find you just look up scam, hatches United. And we are, have, we have a Facebook page. I talked with the Facebook page. There’s a little button that says messages. Come on to that. If you come onto the page and write some thing, it’s public, they can see that if you come onto messages, it’s completely, um, confidential. You’ll get myself, you’ll get one of the other depends. We work around the clock as well. So obviously we, you know, we have Americans on one time, we have your opinions on it another time. So you’ll get somebody there. And one of us will help you. You can go on Instagram and look up scam, haters United, and you’ve got the ladies, um, on the message page there. And then we’ll talk it over with you. They’ll discuss everything. Don’t be surprised if we fight you. If you’re not going to listen to us because we will, I will fight you. If you don’t believe me, I want to get you away from your scammer.
Speaker 3 (33:44):
Yeah, absolutely. We’re scam here to see email@example.com. We ask them, Hey, do you see united.com? We are very, very easy to find. Well, I mean it, when I say you’re an angel, thank you so much for being on the show and expanding. And um, so I want to thank you. And if people listening to this show enjoyed it, please. Don’t forget to rate, review and subscribe, and also follow me on Instagram and on Twitter at dr. Joe Kort. I’ll see you next time. Take care and be safe, particularly online.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Thanks for listening to this episode of smart sex, smart love. I’m dr. Joe court, and you can find me on Joe kort.com. That’s J O E K O R t.com. See you next time.