Dr. Lee Phillips on Sex Therapy and Chronic Illnesses & Disabilities – Smart Sex, Smart Love

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  • Episode Transcript

This week Joe meets Dr. Lee Phillips. Dr. Phillips is in private practice in Washington, DC where he treats clients with chronic illness and sexual dysfunction. Author of the book, ‘Sex & Love When You Are Sick?’, Lee, an AASECT Certified Sex Therapist, also lectures on topics including sexuality, anxiety & stress management, caregiving stress, depression in the elderly, mindfulness and cognitive strategies for chronic pain. 

Dr Phillips wants to crush the myth that people with chronic illness and other disabilities are not sexual. Also, today, during Covid-19 many are dealing with anticipatory grief as well, and that plays into our sex lives too. “People are very scared about what the future holds,” says Dr. Phillips. “Right now as a world, we’re in fear about what’s going to happen to us, and that can also make having a sex life difficult.”

But, despite this,  Lee believes that couples can overcome shame, and sexual limitations caused by illness, (or Covid fear)  to reclaim a sex life that works for them!

Find Dr. Phillips at:
Website | Facebook

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome back to smart sex smart love. Thank you all for tuning in each week. And if you’re new to my podcast, hello and welcome. This week I’ll be chatting about sex therapy and chronic illness and disability with my guest, Dr. Lee Philips. Dr. Phillips is in private practice in Washington DC where he treats clients with chronic illness and sexual dysfunction. Author of the book, sex and love when you are sick. Dr. Lee is an ACEP certified sex therapist and also lectures on topics including sexuality, chronic pain, anxiety and stress management, caregiving, stress, depression in the elderly, mindfulness and cognitive strategies for chronic pain. Dr. Lee wants to crush the myth that people with chronic illness and other disabilities are not sexual. Plus he says that couples can overcome shame and sexual limitations caused by illness to reclaim a sex life that works for them. Welcome Dr. Lee.

Speaker 2:

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1:

Oh, it’s so, it’s so great to have you. Um, and maybe we could, even since it’s the time of covert 19, we might even talk a little bit about how to, how are people to be sexual during a time where they may be contagious and all of that. I, we didn’t talk about that, but I’m hoping you might be able to address it a little bit.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely. Because it’s been coming up in my sessions with my clients and I’ve also, um, I’ve been writing a little bit about it as well.

Speaker 1:

Oh, good. So could we start with that then? Like what, what, cause people ask me that, you know, I do those of court law or Joe court live after dark. It’s Facebook things and people ask me and I don’t feel qualified to answer that. So what do you say?

Speaker 2:

Well, you know, it’s interesting. I have a lot of clients that I see that have chronic illness, uh, due to, that’s the area that I specialize in. And you know, chronic illness or no chronic illness, people were really afraid to have sex, whether they are single or their partner. They’re so, um, living in this time of fear that they don’t want to give it to their partner but they want to be sexual. What I’m really seeing, which is fascinating, is that there is like, um, some hind sexual desire, but there’s all, there’s one, so low sexual desire. I’m hearing all types of messages. I’m hearing that, you know, um, you know, sex is the last thing on my mind right now. It’s, it’s the last thing that I want to do, but I’m also hearing from my clients that I’m super horny and all I want to do is have sex.

Speaker 2:

And so we’re trying to figure out, um, you know, what, what to do with that. And so we talk about desire and we talk about, you know, spontaneous desire that people were having, where they think about it and they want it, and then what can they do? And that happens. So we also talk about responsive desire, how, you know, we’re going to have some physical things going on, and then they get that response and they really want to have it. But one of the things that I’m really seeing in my work right now when it comes to the 19 is anticipatory grief. People are very, um, scared about what the future holds. So for an example, it’s like having a loved one that gets diagnosed with a terminal illness and you worry what, what happened to them? Well, right now as a world we’re in fear about what’s going to happen to us.

Speaker 2:

And so with that happening, I feel like there is the, um, idea of low sexual desire that that can be there. And when I have clients that are talking about that, they do want to have some type of, um, time of effects. And there is this time of uncertainty. There’s room for opportunity. And so I’ve stressed that if you’re feeling sexually aroused but you don’t want to engage in physical distancing, you still can be sexual and you don’t have to it. And you know, as well as I know as a sex therapist that you don’t have to engage in mind blowing sex. That sexual pleasure. It’s not a performance, it’s all about pleasure and it’s your pleasure. And so I always tell my clients, get curious about yourself, get curious about your partner, and get creative with your sex and make space for the erotic.

Speaker 2:

And I always say construct the blue print, like a sexual blueprint of your body and that places on your body where you see a more or less sexual sensation. I think we’re living in a time right now where people are really getting involved with masturbation and how that and how to please themselves and looking at pressures in their bodies. Where do they feel the most sensation? So looking at patterns that feel good. You know, that’s the one thing that I love about sex and that I love about sex therapy is that you can get so creative with sex and with sex therapy, when one thing doesn’t work, we try something different.

Speaker 1:

I love that you were talking about being creative around auto erotic and sell, um, you know, sex with oneself because that’s something so taboo to talk about. When I bring it up with couples, they often say, Oh, you know, they’re shy about it. They haven’t never talked about it with each other. One feels threatened by it. Like what do you mean you’re having sex with yourself when you can be having sex with me instead of making room for both sex with oneself and each other. I’m kind of, I like the, the, the tips you’re giving them to map out the body of where he’s, where they have their own pleasure zones.

Speaker 2:

Right? Absolutely. And you know, I think it’s so critical to have some type of dialogue with your partner where you can communicate your sexual and your erotic desires. Especially during this time because I feel like people are saying, I know everyone is staying in for quarantine so when you’re quarantine and you’re staying in, you get more into your thoughts and so you’re thinking about well what can I do sexually? And when you have a part, a couple like with what you were just describing, one thing that is very helpful is to ha is to hold the space for them where they can really communicate those needs and they can do some mirroring. They can do that validating and showing empathy to each other to where they can understand each other. And because your partner’s not a mind reader. Right. Sometimes when I had a couple of, they think that they, their partner assuming what they want but they don’t know. And so it’s so critical to be able to, to hold that conversation or to have that dialogue with the gentleman

Speaker 1:

and especially right with chronic illness I would imagine. Right. Things, even if you think, you know, you’re not going to understand how sexuality is impacted by the illness. Right?

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. Especially if you have a couple where, where usually what happens is you’ve got one couple that a one partner does have a chronic illness and the other one does not. And so it’s helping that partner, the healthy partner understand the feelings and emotions that the ill partner is having. And what I find is when you can work on their emotional stability of their relationships, because I call it the rupture in the partnership, when someone gets diagnosed with a chronic illness, there’s a lot of shame. Um, my body is broken. You know, there’s a lot of discomfort, disconnect with each other and sometimes it’s not so much the IL partner, sometimes it’s the healthy partner. They’re afraid they’re going to earth, they just engaged from being sexual. And so I think where we can do effects therapist is really holding the space for them to be able to talk that out.

Speaker 2:

And you know, in order to do that, you really have to understand the different stages of chronic illness that people go through. And that first stage is a crisis space. So during that crisis phase, they’re usually looking for a diagnosis. It’s an emergency stage, and so we start to see a lot of rupture in the partnership. Then you know, there can be anger, there’s a lot of different emotions, there’s sadness, there’s grief veterans to happen. And then after that we start to see a stabilization phase where their symptoms are plateauing, but they’re able to understand a little bit about how their illness works and they make it a little better. Maybe they have a diagnosis by this point, but sometimes they’re still not feeling very sexual. There’s a lot of low sexual desire at this point. And then they go through a resolution phase where they really started to, um, they’re having relapses, but they’re starting to even understand their illness even more. And they’re finally learning that they can’t be the person who they used to be, but maybe they can start to develop a new authentic self by locating what’s important to them and what can they do sexual. So it’s looking at what’s possible instead of one once was once achievable and being able to hold that space. And then in the integration phase, which is the last phase, that’s where I start to see clients really start to reclaim their sexuality.

Speaker 1:

Mmm. That’s nice. Yeah. Yeah, that’s really good because people get so hideous about it, you know,

Speaker 2:

they get, they get so hopeless about it. There is, and you know, with one of the things with low sexual desire, we have to look at mental health. Do you know, I’ve always practiced the idea that I’m always a psychotherapist first and then I’m a sex therapist. And so I think it’s critical to look at the underlying mental health issues. And what the research shows. If there’s chronic pain, does your chronic illness. If you can decrease your symptoms of depression, anxiety or any other emotions that you’re feeling, then you can manage your pain better and that’s when I start to see people become more sexual and that’s when you know, we start to see the integration of a sentence that comes into their lives and when there’s a lot of the substance sex sections and then they’re able to really start to be sexual again with each other.

Speaker 1:

Okay. Now that was the two [inaudible] two of them right there. Two more or did you offer it in here?

Speaker 2:

I, I went ahead and I did all four but the integration phase is where you really start to see couples become more sexual. They’ve accepted the illness, they want to learn how to live well with it and then they want to reclaim their sexuality and reclaiming sexuality is the the common thing that we use in sex therapy when it comes to treating chronic illness. That really is when people are wanting to reclaim their sex after they’ve been diagnosed with something and they were sexual before the diagnosis. Um, and so that’s where we really hold the space and start to do the sex therapy then. But it’s critical to really look at, you know, what was their sex like prior to until,

Speaker 1:

and is it hard to get them to talk about all this when they come into the office?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, you know, when they know that I’m a sex therapist, usually it’s not. Um, when I tell them I am, they’re like, well, that’s an added bonus. It, you know, it goes back to the idea that, you know, when I have these clients that come in with chronic pain conditions or chronic illnesses, they always say that their doctor never brings anything up about stuff. You know, it’s, it’s not discussed in the office. Some of them have 10 minutes with their doctor, you know, I’m sure you’ve heard that too. You know, you just don’t, you don’t talk about it.

Speaker 1:

I have in the, especially in the LGBT community, right. Um, there’s doctors, even if LGBT wants to talk about it, the doctors are so discriminated, uh, and negative and hostile. Um, but even without outside the LGBT, uh, the doctors aren’t trained, they’re not trained in this. So they don’t know what to say.

Speaker 2:

Yes, absolutely. They don’t know what to train. And I’ve even had that experience when I worked with female clients or people that, you know, identify with having a vulva. They go and they, um, a gynocologist doesn’t talk about it. So it’s not trying to down the medical community, it’s just, it’s not talked about. They’re trained in the medical model where they diagnose and they put a label on the illness. But when we are a psychotherapist, we look at how we do that holistic treatment, right? Where we look at the whole person and how it impacts their life. That’s the difference between disease until it is these is the pathology of it. It’s the label of it. We got to call it something. But in the illness room of things, we’re looking at the human experience and that’s really what we do is therapists.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Right. And you know, we’re kind of the medical model too, right? And so sadly, so many regular therapists are not trained in sexual health and don’t get the German that you and I have had. So that’s why it’s important. People know that sex therapists in addition to being regular psychotherapist exist.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. And you know, I really have great appreciation to my colleagues who aren’t sex therapists because they will work for people to me, they will say, you know, I’m, I’m not trained in sexuality or you know, consensual non-monogamy, polyamory, kink, a chronic illness and sex, the second disability. So I’m going to refer you to dr pillows down the road. And I really do appreciate that. And I think we’re seeing more folks do that. It’s funny, I had a client that I was working with one time and she came to me and she, uh, had been sick for 10 years and did not know what was wrong with her. She kept getting the runaround from doctors. You’ve got fibromyalgia, you’ve got this, you’ve got that. And I looked at her one day and I said, have you been to a rheumatologist? And she said, no, never.

Speaker 2:

So I, I gave her a few names. She went to a rheumatologist and for fibromyalgia there’s no blood test score it. So you have to be diagnosed by identifying trigger points in your body that are painful. And so she ended up meeting like 11 out of the 18 trigger points on her body that were very, very painful. She had a lot of digestive issues, anxiety, depression, chronic migraine. She was not feeling sexual at all. And so after she was diagnosed with fibromyalgia, the doctor looked at her and he said, I need you to do three things. I need you to try to live a stress free life. I know that’s difficult, but I try, I need you to try to get rest. And the third thing is I want you to see a psychotherapy. And I loved hearing that because what we’re seeing in the research is that then one of the number one treatments for chronic pain management, it’s psychotherapy.

Speaker 1:

That’s awesome. And it’s awesome that they’re know that, that it’s not just a medical model, that there’s like a logical psychosocial psychosexual social as very McCarthy says in our field. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Oh, go ahead. Were you gonna say something?

Speaker 2:

Well, I’m just saying like, just the psychosocial stressors that, that filter in. You know, it’s funny, I have a couple sometimes Jo that are doing fine with each other. They’re having sex, they’re communicating, they’re emotional, they’re going on dates, they’re doing this, but they have these outside factors coming into their partnership that causes the rupture. So psychosocial stressors that come in. I see that all the time.

Speaker 1:

Yes. Yep. I do too. Can you speak to what happens to the partnership from being neglected due to chronic illness? Right. So I don’t know. Both couples, both partners feeling neglected or the apartment that isn’t a struggling with a chronic illness whose feels more neglected as you see that?

Speaker 2:

Yes, I do see that. That’s a great question. And they’re both, they both feel neglected. Um, one, the partner, the partner that has a disability or they’ve got a chronic illness, they feel they may be having the low sexual desire so they’re not feeling sexual. And so they may disengage and they feel neglected or they feel like their body’s broken or they have the fear that, Hey, I’m not going to be able to please my partner. Like the way that I used to maybe the partner that ill was the partner that was initiating the sex and now they’re no longer initiating it. And then the other partner that’s healthy, they’re feeling guilty because they’re having some feelings about not wanting to be sexual with their partner or they’re afraid they’re going to harm their partner. And so that’s why I call it the rupture and the partnership because that’s what happens.

Speaker 2:

There’s this engagement, they isolate from each other and they have this fear. And so one of the things that I really work on first, I’ve seen two different things happen on one end of the spectrum. I see folks that come in and they say, Dr. Phillips, we just really need to have great sex. And so the relationship convicted stuff that’s happened probably three times in my career, the therapist. But then on the other side, I see folks that have all of the, um, conflict in their relationship and they really need to work on that for Becky’s first so they can become close to each other. Again, reclaim that intimacy and then we can look at the sex. And that’s what I have found with chronic illness. It’s getting them to be closer. First of all, it’s getting them to talk about it. They stop talking about it.

Speaker 2:

It’s like they close off. And when we can have that space for them to engage, then we start to see the rupture start to heal. They’re talking about it more. Um, you know, I use a lot of Amando dialoguing in my session. And so having them do that, having them practice that is home, having them come back in and giving them some assignments, we start to see things that are differently now. What has to happen too is the partner that was initiating sex, they may no longer, they may not be able to do that. So the other partner that I would not initiate it, they may have to be the initiator. So we start to see roles change, which is very interesting. And helping them adjust to that. There’s a lot of sexual adjustments that have to happen.

Speaker 1:

Now when you say a mango, some people understand that Margo relationship therapy has a set of communication exercises and that’s what you’re talking about, correct?

Speaker 2:

Yes. That’s what we’re talking about. So in the Amalio dialogue, you know, there’s three components that we use mirroring where they mirror each other. Once a sender wants the receiver, or we call it the host in the visitor, and then after that stage we validate. Validating is very difficult, I find, because I have couples that come in and maybe you’ve heard this too, Jay, where it’s like, well, why am I going to validate something when I don’t agree with them?

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. And I always say, well,

Speaker 2:

so I’m like, well, validating is not agreeing with your partner. You’re just acknowledging their feelings.

Speaker 1:

You’re [inaudible] yeah. In their reality. Right? It’s like your reality. I don’t, I completely disagree with, but I can see it from your point of view is one of the hardest thing for couples to do.

Speaker 2:

Isn’t that so difficult? And it’s so difficult when you’re working with chronic illness, it’s so difficult because the client or the partner that’s chronically ill sometimes, and it’s unfortunate, they become a victim of their illness, the whole thing, and it takes over. It consumes them. And that’s very difficult. And so what we find is the healthy partner starts to become resentful and that’s very difficult. And I know my experience as a psychotherapist and sex therapist, sometimes it’s so difficult to heal resentment. It’s so difficult. But when we can turn that around and they can start to validate and then that’s the second stage validation and the Imago dialogue and then get into some empathy work, we start to see a change happen. I’m a big fan of a Maga relationship therapy. I’ve been trained in Gottman style, I’ve looked at some DFT stuff, but I love Amato because I feel as a therapist and just to educate the listeners, you know, in sex therapy, we know that it always has this cognitive behavioral foundation, which yes, it’s needed, especially when you’re looking at sexual dysfunction and things like that. But we find that we can go so much deeper and we can find that yes, a lot of our clients have had these childhood wounds that can be healed.

Speaker 1:

So really a lot of the stuff you’re talking about is for any couple, not just couples with chronic illness.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. It’s any couple. So when I treat, you know, chronic illness, um, one of the things that I have to do with them really is the sexual adjustment. It’s doing different things that are sexual. And so that may not be in a tree of sex. They may have to dig and involve more creativity with oral sex or mutual masturbation. They may have to change the day when they have sex. A lot of times when people are chronically ill, they have more energy in the morning. So we talk about morning sex, they get on a schedule with each other where when I have couples that aren’t chronically ill, it’s really just healing the emotional piece and then they can go and have sex or maybe they can reclaim whatever they were doing. But when it comes to treating disabilities, it’s having to get more creative. You know, it’s actually interesting when I have couples who had disabilities where I’ve had partners where they’re both disabled, but I’ve also had inter abled couples where one has a disability and one does not. They actually become very creative with their, it’s actually quite interesting and then I can take what they tell me and I can apply that to my folks that don’t have disabilities. [inaudible] so it’s really interesting. It is great. It is great. But that’s really the difference that I see when I’m doing, you know, a couple sex therapy.

Speaker 1:

Now let me ask you, what are some tips that you provide couples that suffer from sexual dysfunction? Do you have like easy tips for them with chronic illness and sexual dysfunction?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. You know, there are some easy tips. First of all, what you want to really try to do is that you want, and this is I think one of the most difficult pieces, is that you want to, you want to be able to talk about it, you want to hold the space where you know you can talk to each other about it. And I think that’s what’s great about holding the state space for our clients. If it gets into at least start talking about it, what the core issue is, what are, what’s triggering the anger, which triggering the sadness. You know, there’s a grief that comes with chronic illness. And so I have used Fiddler’s Ross’s model with that. So there’s a denial factor. You know, the partner feels like, Oh, I have, you know, multiple sclerosis, but I’m still gonna do what I wanted to do, right?

Speaker 2:

I don’t believe this shit. And then they realize that they can’t. So there’s a denial factor. Then there’s a lot of anger. You know what? I’m angry that I had the fear. I’ve been such a sexual, been all my life. You know, one of our clients, they really, their identity is born from their sexuality and I can’t, yes. And I, I can’t go to the dungeon and play like I used to. I can’t go out with my play partners. I can’t have the sex that I used to have. So what can I do now there’s a lot of anger. Then there’s bargaining where they’re begging to go back to the body that they had. Um, and so we see that. And so working with them through those emotions and then we see depression right there. A lot of depression. That is the most common mental health problem that comes with sex and disability is depression.

Speaker 2:

And so holding a space for healing, and I use a lot of cognitive work in that looking at, well what can you do that can be sexual, that can be pleasurable. And then of course we go to acceptance, which is the last stage in that grief model. And you know, it’s not linear. So they may go back and forth between different stages. But that’s the biggest piece is getting through that. Then I remind a couple that they can still have a physical relationship with each other without a high level of sexual desire because that’s the big piece. They come in thinking I still have to perform. And when they get into that performance mode, that’s when we start to see a lot of anxiety. And so being able to get back into your body and decrease that. And there’s many ways of expressing love and fondness without having to have full blown sexual intercourse, cuddling, kissing, massage, simple compliment.

Speaker 2:

You know when we have that responsive desire and your partner is telling you, you look so good today, you look so handsome, you look so pretty, what does that do? That can cause a lot of arousals. And so getting back in to that type of communication, another thing that I use is altered genital sensation, which I think is very helpful. Where you know, we cannot restore some station parts of the body affected by disability or illness sometimes. And so different techniques can be used to explore various body parts without immediate focus on the genitals. So say you have someone that it paralyzed from the waist down and they don’t have feeling anymore, but they can still feel in their chest, their arms, their fingers. I have had clients if they’re coupled to be able to explore that with each other on what other areas feel good to them. I saw a client, I saw a client one time that his wife would massage his thumb like his Dina and it would cause an orgasm. He would have a bottle.

Speaker 1:

That’s awesome.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Yes, it was amazing. And then when I attended my SAR, my sexual attitude reassessment, my sexual, uh, re-assessment attitude training on, um, sexual attitude reassessment for my certification, which we have to do to become an ASX certified sex therapist. It should have video of this where a client who was single, he had a sex surrogate come in, you know, if there get someone to work with people to help reclaim sex, learn about their body. And she did this to his thumb as well. So it was amazing to be able to see that. And that’s really what the work is really about. It’s trying different things. And so using different touch, kissing, stucking, um, different types of sexual tools, vibrators, toys become very critical during this time. Um, trying those things and again, it’s really doing the, the communication and what feels good to you and having that dialogue. And that’s what I, those are the tips that I always share and that I always encourage people to do, whether they’re single or their partner.

Speaker 1:

It reminds me of Joan Price I had out here who works with people over 50 and sex and she says, you know, our bodies changed. Things stop working. We just have to work harder, work longer and adapt. And it’s not, it’s not such a bad thing. It’s doable is what she says. And that’s what you’re saying.

Speaker 2:

Yes, it is doable. You’re looking at what’s possible now that this has changed and now that someone is in a new body or they’re born with a disability, I have soap that has to reveal palsy that I see and they’ve been disabled their whole life and they’ve been told that they’re not sexual. You’re asexual because you know you’re, you can’t have sex, you’re in a wheelchair. And that is traumatizing. It’s damaging. And so they come to see me and they’re, you know, they’re like, I am sexual, want to have sex, I do get horny, I have arousal in, in me. Um, and one of my good friends, Andrew GIRs, uh, who is the disability activist, he has his own podcast, disability after dark and I’m a guest on there quite a bit. And he talks a lot about queer disability and sex and being able to be sexual in your body and find what feels good to you. And that’s really what it’s about.

Speaker 1:

So before, um, we have a few more minutes, I would like you to talk about if you would, what inspired you to write and the book sex love when you are sick and, and have this topic out there.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Well, you know, I tend to proposal stages at this time. I’m editing my sample chapters for the book. And you know, I got inspired to write this book because, you know, the idea is that there’s not a lot of literature out there on disability. You know, in 2003 we had the ultimate guide to, you know, disability, chronic pain and a chronic illness, which has a great book and one that I use. But you know, we’re seeing a gap in the research. And so I really got inspired to write the book because I was seeing this in my sessions and I’m like, well, I want to produce something about this. And I feel like when you’re an expert in something, it’s so critical to write about it. And so my book is going to mainly be for couples. The single people can read it as well and it’s going to apply to our readers, heterosexual, gay, lesbian, queer, transgender canes, and those that are also in polyamorous, polyamorous relationships.

Speaker 2:

Um, I think that’s important. So I’m going to have different composites of people that I’ve seen in therapy that fit all of those categories and talk about their journey and how they dealt with their disability and becoming sexual again. And my book is going to provide couples with the opportunity to really improve their emotional connection around sexual intimacy and give them a chance to really enhance their sexual awareness, their communication, and their sexual style. So I’m super excited about it. I think it’s going to be very helpful to folks and I’m really looking forward to getting it done.

Speaker 1:

Um, so I know, I remember those days. I mean I haven’t written a book now in six years and it, I mean I write little tiny little booklets but they’re easier. I, I it’s like having a baby. I don’t know, maybe I can’t say that cause I’ve never had a baby. But, um, it’s really freaking hard.

Speaker 2:

It’s really hard to, my proposal almost done, which is great. Every, all the components in my proposal are finished. I’m just working on the sample, the second sample chapter and you know, dr Tammy Nelson, she’s been so nice enough to be my editor. So she’s editing it and then I’m hoping to get it out to some agents by this summer, you know, and just get it out there and see if I get any grabs on it. I think it’s such a needed topic. I think it’s a topic that’s not talked about enough and I’m super excited about it because you know, 40 million people in this country suffer from chronic illness and this year that number is going to double and people want to have sex. People want to reclaim their sexuality. Um, and I’m very busy right now with coven 19 going on because most of my clients are chronically ill and they’re terrified. So it, I’ve been super busy, which has been great, but it’s such a rewarding job.

Speaker 1:

Julie, I’m so happy to have you on here and so happy that you’re part of our modern sex therapy too. I really appreciate you being a part of that whole sexual certificate and um, program that we offer. How can people find you on the internet?

Speaker 2:

You can find me on Facebook at dr Lisa lips. You can also find me on Instagram at dr Lisa lists and my website. It’s WW dot Dr. Lee phillips.com.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much for being my guest, Dr. Lee, and thanks for everyone listening. Don’t forget to follow me on Instagram and Twitter at dr Joe court and please rate, review and subscribe to my podcast. Until next week. Goodbye everybody. 

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